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Can USA have a non-sinner President?

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#1 Pastafaris

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:46 AM

I recently had a Facebook chat with a friend of mine that is a Baptist minister in North Carolina.  He was bemoaning the horrors facing America now that we've again got an incredibly sinful man in the White House. I chose to comment and we had a modest dialog.  I thought it might be of some interest here.  Please comment if you find anything interesting.  Vince is the minister and JohnR is me, Pastafaris:

Vince:  In 1536, England was under the power of one of the most vile kings of her history, King Henry VIII. William Tyndale lived in this time as well, and had produced an English translation of the Bible (yes - 1611 was NOT the first English Translation; there were several before then), which angered the Catholic Church. Tyndale also angered Henry VIII by opposing his divorce from Catherine of Aragon.

Tyndale was eventually apprehended and put to death on the charge of heresy. Because he was a scholar, he was permitted the "favor" of being strangled to death rather than burned, and his body burned thereafter. With his final words, Tyndale prayed to God that the eyes of the King of England would be opened.

Less than 4 years later, 4 English translations of the Bible were published in England, at the charge of King Henry VIII. God can open the eyes of even the most evil of leaders, to bring about good.

Is Mr. Obama as evil as King Henry VIII? I don't know. In the eyes of God, all sin is the same. I know I can not support a man who runs on a platform that is in favor of murdering babies, Communism (redistribution of wealth IS Communism), and redefining marriage. But as William Tyndale, I can pray that this man's eyes will be opened. And so, that is what I will do, and I encourage you to do the same.


JohnR: As long as people like you keep a closed mind to the ever remote possibility that Obama might actually help the country, the US is doomed to become more and more polarized. Besides, as the election approached, Romney said he was for killing pre-babies in cases of rape and incest, so that makes him a sinner too. After all, all sin is the same. So is Mr. Romney as evil as King Henry VIII? If I were the type to pray (and you know that I'm not), I'd pray that your eyes would be open. Obama won; we can either bitch and moan about it, or maybe consider the possibility of working together with him to try to achieve some common goals.

Vince: Hi John. I think you missed the part where I said I would pray that his eyes would be opened, in reference to King Henry VIII and the good he did IN SPITE of being evil. My whole point being that I DO believe that God can do some good through Mr. Obama, if Mr. Obama allows him to.

Is Mr. Romney evil as well? Absolutely. The God he serves lives on a planet near a star called Kolob. He himself strives to be the god of his own planet (bigger dreams than the Muslims who only ask for 72 Virgins?) I'm not making this up! (Joseph Smith and Brigham Young already did!) The difference is that he had pledged to uphold moral values, which I as a Christian and an American find very important. God has used many evil leaders and those evil leaders have prospered when they allowed God to use them. Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, for instance, or Cyrus of Persia, of whom, even though he worshiped many pagan deities (he had to have been Magian, which evolved to become mixed with Zarathustra's teachings and became contemporary Zoroastrianism), God called him "My servant".


JohnR: Truth be told Vince, there's no way that we'll ever elect a non-sinner to any political post. So although you say all sin is the same, can we elect people who score only a 6.2 on the 10 point sin scale?


Vince: John - EVERYBODY is a sinner. Some, however, have the blood of Jesus to wash away their sins. Maybe we can elect someone like that and maybe not. We can, however, elect someone who pledges to uphold morality, which is different from righteousness.


JohnR: Vince, have I ever suggested that I'm not a sinner? Just the same as you, though I wonder if I'm in the major league of sinners and you're just down in the minors? :) After all, not believing is pretty bad stuff. JC hasn't given me a bath, but i'm convinced that I have as solid a grasp on morality and ethical behavior as some of the most self-proclaimed righteous people out there. Just look at the kooks that ran for the Senate. Now don't run out and nominate me for 2016! :)
Humanity without religion is like a serial killer without a chainsaw.

#2 Vetr

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 22:08 PM

Vince said:

In 1536, England was under the power of one of the most vile kings of her history, King Henry VIII. (...) Less than 4 years later, 4 English translations of the Bible were published in England, at the charge of King Henry VIII. God can open the eyes of even the most evil of leaders, to bring about good. (...) Is Mr. Obama as evil as King Henry VIII? I don't know.

Was Henry VIII a 'vile king'?  It depends who you ask.  He was a very effective king, a little heavy with the beheading axe, perhaps, which might count against him... And certainly he wasn't the most chivalrous of men, to say the least.  But by what standards are we judging him?  Our modern society's standards, or those of his own?

The most controversial element of Henry's reign was the dissolution of the monasteries and the severing of ties to Rome.  If you're prone to sympathise with the Catholic Church, you'll probably view this as a bad thing.  If you're opposed to the Catholic Church, it would seem to be a rather less bad thing.  And if, like most people, you don't really think about it much, then the most you can probably say about Henry was that he was memorable.

Vince said:

Communism (redistribution of wealth IS Communism).

No: redistribution of wealth is what Jesus taught his followers to do. The rich should give of their wealth to support the poor. The only difference is that they shouldn't need the state to tell them to do it.  How do you become a minister without knowing this?

JohnR said:

As long as people like you keep a closed mind to the ever remote possibility that Obama might actually help the country, the US is doomed to become more and more polarized.

Couldn’t agree more. Flinging words like ‘evil’ and ‘sinner’ around to describe a politician who doesn’t happen to conform to your political beliefs is not helpful. How many evil people do you think there actually are, as opposed to people who just don't see things the way you do?  I truly believe that had Mitt Romney won, he would have stepped up and done the job of President to the best of his ability, serving the interests of his own party’s voters as far as possible while not neglecting his responsibility to all Americans, and to the world.

And I truly believe that Obama will do exactly the same, as I’ve no doubt he has done for the last four years, and as George W. Bush did before him, and Bill Clinton before him, and so on.  None of these men were 'evil', any more than they were 'good'.  They did some good things, and some evil things.  This tells us that they're human.

Vince said:

Hi John. I think you missed the part where I said I would pray that his eyes would be opened, in reference to King Henry VIII and the good he did IN SPITE of being evil.

And since when was it the position of a Christian to judge a person evil? Since when was it the position of a Christian to judge a person at all? That’s God’s job. A Christian can legitimately object to any given thing a person does - “hate the sin” , and all that - but Vince here, minister or not, doesn’t enjoy God’s right to save or condemn.

I’m sorry if Vince is a friend of yours, Pastafaris, but I think he should perhaps look to address his own pride before he holds forth any more about the sins of others.
I know.  I talk too much.

#3 Pastafaris

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 00:48 AM

Vetr,

Thanks for the in-depth analysis.  Vince isn't actually a friend of mine, I share a house with his brother so I know him primarily through our FB dialogs.  I really liked your comments about using words like 'evil' and 'sinner' and his passing judgment on others.  But he is a Baptist minister and they do tend to do that.  :)  

Pasafaris

"I believe in His Noodliness, His Meatballs, and His Delighful Sauces.  May His Noodly appendage touch you."
Humanity without religion is like a serial killer without a chainsaw.

#4 Terry Branna

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 17:56 PM

I agree with Vince that EVERYBODY is a sinner. There is no need to quarrel guys. Don't judge each other. And believe me, our president is not the worst. At samedayessay legit source I've read about Ukrainian president, it's creepy guys :(





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