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Athience:Hell - is an invention of the church

hell church invention

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#1 Goddess

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 20:38 PM

Interesting short video about John Shelby Spong a retired Episcopal bishop from Newark, N.J. who talks about why Christianity must change its view of hell. Spong is one of the leading spokepersons for liberal Christianity.

video is interesting, not because this guy's a Liberal Christian, but, because I find it intriguing how he can explain how wrong one tenet of christianity is, but still uphold the others.

What do you think?

Click here to view the article

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#2 Damon

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 20:42 PM

Just one of the many irrational religious dogmas that has to go. The whole thing is not only irrational, it's a threat to the future of civilised society.

#3 Goddess

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 20:48 PM

I don't believe society can truly be called 'civilised' until all churches and supernatural beliefs are abandoned.

I truly hope we're getting close.

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#4 TwistedByKnaves

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 21:54 PM

Great Spong!

#5 TwistedByKnaves

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 21:59 PM

To answer the question, it's like any other area of knowledge: some right, some wrong. We seek to seek out the truth, build on it and filter out the falsehood.

Seems to me that he is presenting a coherent view that answers a lot of the problems with fundamentalist views of religion. I particularly like "God is not a Christian". Which is kind of obvious, but seems hard for a lot of people to understand.

#6 Goddess

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:20 PM

View PostTwistedByKnaves, on 11 October 2012 - 21:59 PM, said:

. I particularly like "God is not a Christian". Which is kind of obvious, but seems hard for a lot of people to understand.

Must admit, this is one thing that absolutely baffles me with regard to the Muslim/Islam arguements...  They're worshipping the SAME God...  So, what they say in their 'Jihads' etc, is not 'I want to kill you because you don't believe in my God', but 'I want to kill you because you believe in the same God, but don't worship the same as I do'.

Really, when you look at it like that, it's even more narrow minded than it seemed in the first place...

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#7 TwistedByKnaves

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:28 AM

View PostGoddess, on 15 October 2012 - 20:20 PM, said:

So, what they say in their 'Jihads' etc, is not 'I want to kill you because you don't believe in my God', but 'I want to kill you because you believe in the same God, but don't worship the same as I do'.

I'm afraid the sad fact is that some people are just looking for a good scrap, and aren't too worried about the theology. Still, most of them grow up and out of it. I suspect that it's a fairly small minority who thought this way before we started invading them, assassinating them without one of those tedious trial things (and anyone who happened to be nearby) and so on.

You might ask "If they're all so moderate, why don't they speak out against terrorism?". In which case I'd ask, "Have you looked?". With Google on hand, there's really no excuse for not at least looking. Googling "as a muslim" "against terrorism" worked for me.

#8 Goddess

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:34 AM

View PostTwistedByKnaves, on 16 October 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

I'm afraid the sad fact is that some people are just looking for a good scrap, and aren't too worried about the theology. Still, most of them grow up and out of it. I suspect that it's a fairly small minority who thought this way before we started invading them, assassinating them without one of those tedious trial things (and anyone who happened to be nearby) and so on.

That's true, and, in retrospect, I shouldn't have used the word jihad, or, at least, I shouldn't have used it on it's own, I should have said 'jihads and crusades' or something to make it clear I wasn't solely having a go at Islam, but, at ANYONE who kills in the name of their religion. I don't care if you're Muslim, Christian, or got a jug of Kool-Aid...  If you're trying to control people through the use of religion, I think it's deplorable.

I also think it's disgraceful that countries are being invaded on the flimsy 'weapons of mass destruction' excuse, with no (or staged) evidence, etc.

I'm an equal opportunity atheist - I dislike ALL religions and what they do to their people. So I apologise for only using that one phrase.

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#9 TwistedByKnaves

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 22:15 PM

View PostGoddess, on 17 October 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:



I'm an equal opportunity atheist - I dislike ALL religions

Including the atheist ones? :0)

#10 Himinow

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 13:30 PM

Yeah, don't you go insulting Eris! She'll set the Flying Spaghetti Monster on you!

Regarding jihad vs crusade... cultural assumptions aside, I'd always thought they meant essentially the same thing - holy war, or war against unbelievers. I tend to use 'holy war(s)' to cover all bases.

#11 TwistedByKnaves

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:15 AM

Himinow, the jihad is, I understand, any sort of struggle, usually in support of the faith. It is often used to refer to the internal struggle within each muslim. When used to mean armed struggle against unbelievers then yes, it seems to be pretty much the same as any other religion's holy war.

For atheist religions, I had Buddhism more in mind, though of course there are many more. I wonder whether Scientism would count as a religion? Perhaps we should define terms, as most of the definitions of religion I have seen are either vague or don't quite seem to fit.

As for Goddess's point on control, I think I agree. In a trivial sense, religions are all about establishing a proper way to behave, and in that sense, control is rightly what they do. The real problem arises when members of one religion fail to respect members of another, and try to force their norms. It's like having the mother in law to stay.





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